======== Subject: Cult v. Minton, 11-29-99 Hearing transcript, 1/5 From: Bob Minton Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:04:48 -0500 Message-ID: <27rd4sgmt3nlrv2l8tku0b774utd6md25r@4ax.com> IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-8 ----------------------------------------X : RICHARD W. HOWD, JR. : : Petitioner, : : vs. : : ROBERT S. MINTON, JR. : : Respondent. : ----------------------------------------X BEFORE: THE HONORABLE THOMAS PENICK, JR. CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE PLACE: ST. PETERSBURG JUDICIAL BUILDING 545 - First Avenue North St. Petersburg, Florida 33701 DATE: November 29, 1999 TIME: 12:00 - 9:00 p.m. REPORTED BY: DONNA M. ANDERSON, RPR SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA ------------------------------------------ RETURN ON TEMPORARY INJUNCTION FOR PROTECTION AGAINST HARASSMENT AND VIOLENCE ------------------------------------------ ORIGINAL VOLUME I Pages 1 - 198 ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES COURT REPORTERS P.O. BOX 35 CLEARWATER, FLORIDA 34617-0035 (727) 443-0992 A P P E A R A N C E S Attorney for Petitioner: Paul B. Johnson, Esquire 112 S. Magnolia Avenue Tampa, Florida 33606 Michael Hertzberg, Esquire 740 Broadway FIfth Floor New York, New York 10003 Attorney for Respondent: Denis Devlaming, Esquire Douglas Devlaming, Esquire 1101 Turner Street Clearwater, Florida 34616-4105 Bruce G. Howie, Esquire 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida 33707 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE COURT: We're here In Re the matter 3 of Richard W. Howd, Jr. vs. Robert 4 S. Minton, Jr. Case is 99-7430-CI-O08. And 5 this is a return on the temporary injunction 6 for protection against harassment and 7 violence. Are we ready to proceed? 8 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, there's a 9 couple of housekeeping matters I'd like to 10 present to Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay, well hold on just a 12 moment. Mr. Devlaming, other than 13 housekeeping your client is ready? 14 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: We're ready. 15 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Yes, Your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, housekeeping. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, last time, as 19 you recall, we both announced we had our 20 First Amendment specialists, and I 21 introduced mine as Mr. Mike Hertzberg from 22 New York. And we filed a formal motion pro 23 hoc viche for him to appear, and also a 24 notice of appearance. I've shown counsel a 25 copy of it and they have no objection. 4 1 THE COURT: Everything appears to be in 2 order? 3 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: We have no 4 objection. 5 THE COURT: Okay, fine. Bring it up 6 here. 7 MR. JOHNSON: One other housekeeping 8 matter. Counsel has just had an agreement. 9 We learned on the Internet that there were a 10 number of photographs taken at the last 11 hearing of myself, my co-counsel, and my 12 client, and a narrative of what went on was 13 taken. Many of the photographs were taken 14 from counsel table. 15 I discovered it recently and I called 16 it to Mr. Devlaming's attention and he has 17 instructed his client that under the rules 18 photographs are not to be taken. 19 THE COURT: Photographs from -- wait a 20 minute. What's this about? I didn't see 21 any camera by the defendant at the time. 22 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: It was before the 23 Court took the bench. Court was not in 24 session when the photographs were taken. 25 And I told Mr. Johnson that would not occur 5 1 again. There were some taken this morning 2 before the Court took the bench. The person 3 that took them, I said no more photographs, 4 and she indicated that the bailiff had said 5 it's okay before the Court takes the bench. 6 But we're not going to have anymore taken at 7 all. 8 MR. JOHNSON: I want to make sure 9 there's no recordings being made that might 10 be made at counsel bench. 11 THE COURT: I understand what you all 12 are saying. But when you all are talking 13 about cameras and you're talking about 14 recordings, I understand by parties and by 15 people other than the media. I want this 16 clear that I'm not excluding or doing 17 anything with the media as far as that's 18 concerned at this time, and this is an open 19 court proceeding, and I'm not going to go 20 back and revisit the St. Petersburg Times 21 vs. Penick, but that is landmark law on open 22 courts. 23 MR. JOHNSON: I have no objection to 24 that. 25 THE COURT: I mean, you only have to 6 1 sue me once. It's an open court. All 2 right? I mean, they may be taking things 3 down and there may be cameras running. But 4 the media, yes. And when I'm saying 5 "media", all the media, you all have cards 6 or something to identify yourselves. If you 7 don't, give one real quick in case something 8 comes up and I have to start checking, okay? 9 But other than that: They, yes. Other 10 people, no. Unless you talk to the 11 attorneys. 12 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Right. 13 THE COURT: Okay. That's what I just 14 want to be sure. Okay. Oh, I tell you 15 what. Mr. Johnson, do I have an order or 16 something I can sign? Or let the record be 17 clear that I have granted his appearance pro 18 hoc v. and that an order will be 19 forthcoming. We'll nunc pro tunc it today 20 to cover any arguments he should make today. 21 MR. JOHNSON: I will submit it 22 tomorrow, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Any objection. 24 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No. 25 MR. JOHNSON: May I also suggest that 7 1 it may be helpful to the Court if we have an 2 opening statement by each side as to what 3 the boundaries and parameters of this 4 hearing is and also what we hope to show 5 during the hearing. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Well, procedural 7 point. This is a return hearing on their 8 injunction. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Who has the burden? 11 MR. JOHNSON: I think I have the 12 burden. 13 THE COURT: All right. And are you 14 asking to -- basically, where I'm going with 15 this, Mr. Johnson, is this is a on a 16 temporary. Are you asking for a permanent? 17 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. We ask for 18 that in our petition. And I understood 19 that's the purpose for this hearing today. 20 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. Devlaming or 21 the Devlamings, you all have had adequate 22 notice? 23 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: We've had 24 adequate notice. Judge, you should know as 25 Mr. Howie announced, we have filed, and I 8 1 don't know if the Court has had an 2 opportunity -- 3 THE COURT: I got a copy. 4 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: All right, to 5 modify the injunction and the relief sought 6 therein. 7 THE COURT: Now hold on, Mr. Devlaming. 8 I guess it's back on my desk, but I have 9 received a document from Mr. Howie. I got 10 it last week. Okay? I'm ready to proceed. 11 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, please I'd 12 like to request that Mr. Hertzberg briefly 13 address the Court concerning the parameters 14 of this case. 15 THE COURT: All right. He may. 16 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I've had 17 occasion to review the -- and study the 18 pleading that was filed on the eve of 19 Thanksgiving by opposing counsel, which Your 20 Honor has stated that you have also had an 21 opportunity to look at, and in particular 22 their motion to modify the injunction that 23 we have to now. And I think I have some 24 good news to report to the Court, because I 25 think everybody's interested in keeping this 9 1 proceeding on and narrow a path as required. 2 And that there is actually less in disputed 3 as I read opposing counsel's papers that may 4 at first blush appear about what the 5 parameters of what a permanent injunction 6 should be. 7 And in particular I want to direct Your 8 Honor's attention to Page 8 of the papers 9 that were filed on behalf of the Respondent, 10 Mr. Minton. Paragraph No. 2, they seek 11 modification of several aspects of the 12 temporary injunction previously ordered by 13 Your Honor. And they start laying it out at 14 the is he bottom of Page 7 following the 15 wherefor clause and moving on it Page 8. 16 And the most significant thing in my 17 view, and I think there is a common ground 18 here to keep these proceedings concise, is 19 that they are willing to agree that there 20 should be a permanent injunction with 21 language should be effective they put in 22 Paragraph 2, which is in sum that the 23 Respondent, Mr. Minton will not have 24 intentional, willful, physical contact with 25 the Petitioner, that's Mr. Howd, the staff 10 1 and parishioners of the Church of 2 Scientology and the Respondent, again, 3 Mr. Minton, not harass or commit acts of 4 violence against these same persons. 5 We feel that that is a proper -- the 6 precise language would have to be worded, 7 worked out in the final order. But we're 8 not going to oppose that kind of relief. 9 That's part of what we want. 10 They also ask for the recision of the 11 150-yard provision. That is going to be a 12 contested issue here. We believe that when 13 the proof is adduced in this case, which 14 will be what was previously before this 15 Court when the preliminary injunction was 16 ordered, and we're going to amplify on that 17 today, we feel that this Court will have an 18 ample basis to conclude that Mr. Minton has 19 made threats on the Internet and elsewhere 20 against church of Scientology's ecclesiastic 21 leaders, against parishioners of the church; 22 that the threats have to be viewed extremely 23 seriously by this Court as they would be by 24 anybody including the people who they're 25 directed against; and that, in fact, 11 1 Mr. Minton has on two occasions, most 2 recently the one in Clearwater which brings 3 us here today, been arrested and charged 4 with assault. 5 And therefore he has a proclivity for 6 violence. And in the general context, and 7 I'm not going to -- obviously you're going 8 to hear the evidence and I'm not going into 9 all the evidence now. But suffice it to say 10 that we believe that we will be able to 11 argue to Your Honor at the conclusion of 12 these proceedings that our evidence 13 justifies keeping the physical distance 14 limitation that applies to Mr. Minton 15 currently in place. 16 They want to get rid of it the 17 completely, as I read their papers. If they 18 don't, if they think that there's some 19 alternative distance that can be maintained 20 that is satisfactory, they haven't indicated 21 so in their papers. So I'm assuming at the 22 moment that they're talking about taking it 23 away completely. We're opposed to that, and 24 that will be a contested issue. 25 They also ask that the language that's 12 1 in the preliminary injunction at Paragraph 2 2 of the preliminary injunction now that 3 Mr. Minton is ordered to stay away, that's 4 the phrase in the injunction, from the 5 church, members from the Petitioner, 6 Mr. Howd and others, that that language be 7 rescinded because they say it's too vague 8 and too difficult, the stay away part. 9 If we get the language that they have 10 conceded and acknowledged that they can live 11 with in the Paragraph 2 of their 12 presentation, and if we get a physical 13 limitation as well, which they're trying to 14 eliminate, we will have -- we will agree 15 that the stay away language, which is 16 presently in Paragraph 2, can be dispensed 17 with, because we think that the other two 18 provision will serve the same purpose and 19 will be more precisely worded and nobody 20 would have a problem with that. 21 Lastly, Your Honor, I just wanted to 22 forecast, although I think that when 23 Mr. Johnson is putting the evidence on, 24 maybe the actual disputes will be more 25 sharpened and will be dealt with in an 13 1 evidentiary capacity by Your Honor at the 2 time, but I would like to indicate that 3 their papers forecast that they want to 4 present evidence of events that purportedly 5 happened in California, I think, when 6 Mr. Minton wasn't even present. They want 7 to talk about how he has been somehow would 8 be impeded from using a property that they 9 now say -- they say he has contracted to 10 purchase property in Clearwater. 11 Now Your Honor will recall that the 12 last time we were in Court, the 13 plaintiff's -- Respondent's counsel made a 14 categorical representation to this Court 15 that there were going to be problems here 16 with the injunction because Mr. Minton had 17 purchased a property in Downtown Clearwater, 18 which he was going to use for certain 19 purposes. I believe they are no longer 20 maintaining that that was an accurate 21 statement at the time that it was made. 22 They'll clarify. But certainly they're 23 certainly not saying that in their papers 24 anymore. 25 And I would suggest to Your Honor that 14 1 this can be dealt with if and when it comes 2 up in an evidentiary sense. I think that 3 it's a red herring on several levels. First 4 of all, if he has not purchased the 5 property, then it's not ripe for this Court 6 even to take that into consideration. If 7 and when someday that that transaction 8 occurs, perhaps Mr. Minton could make an 9 application to address that at that time. 10 But I don't think it need deter us now. 11 And in any event, notwithstanding 12 whatever status that purchase or 13 non-purchase has at the moment, again to 14 reiterate, we are in agreement with the 15 alternative language that they have proposed 16 on paragraph -- numbered Paragraph 2, Page 8 17 of their filing. 18 Lastly, Your Honor, before I sit down, 19 they apparently are seeking in the -- I 20 guess in the guise of their motion to 21 modify, they also out of the blue now they 22 say they want some injunctive relief. And 23 they want it in a very broad sense against 24 all Scientologists out there. I would 25 suggest to Your Honor procedurally that's 15 1 not the issue before the Court today. We 2 are here today on Mr. Howd, the Petitioner's 3 petition. That's what was set on the 4 calendar today. We believe that's the only 5 issue that should be addressed by this 6 Court. Mr. Howd is the Petitioner. We 7 should not lose sight of that. The acts 8 that you hear are threats directed 9 against -- an incident in which Mr. Howd 10 ended up being taken to the hospital. There 11 was an arrest that ensued. 12 I would suggest to the Court that if we 13 get into some kind of counter-application 14 for a temporary restraining order or other 15 relief by the other side we will multiply 16 these proceedings infinitely and we will 17 complicate them infinitely, that the 18 straight narrow issue, and the only 19 permissible one, procedurally and otherwise 20 before this case (sic) today, is our 21 original petition. Thank you, Your Honor. 22 MR. HOWIE: May I proceed, sir? 23 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 24 MR. HOWIE: Concerning our motion for 25 modification of the injunction, the Court is 16 1 well aware of the premises on which this 2 injunction was granted. We see two issues 3 here. The first issue is Mr. Howd and his 4 ability to get the injunction. And the 5 second issue is the First Amendment rights 6 of Mr. Minton, the Respondent. We want the 7 Court -- we ask the Court to take a 8 balancing approach on the interests that are 9 involved here. That goes to the very 10 essence of the equitable nature of the 11 injunction. 12 One of the things the Court needs to be 13 concerned about is the public interest in 14 knowing about the issues that are connected 15 with the Respondent's efforts to make his 16 own position known to the public. 17 Mr. Minton wishes to reserve his First 18 Amendment rights, his right to use a 19 traditional public forum, the sidewalks of 20 the city of Clearwater, in order to make his 21 position public in an effective manner, in a 22 manner that allows the public in turn to 23 receive that message. 24 We need, of course, to be concerned 25 about balancing of rights any time the Court 17 1 does equity in these situations. And that 2 is the basis of our second request, which is 3 an effort to issue an order from this Court 4 that deals not merely in a patchwork fashion 5 with the issue that arose on October 31, but 6 to avoid the very multiplicity of litigation 7 that Mr. Hertzberg just spoke of so that 8 everyone knows what the situation is and how 9 the situation can be handled by the Court if 10 the problem arises. 11 Mr. Hertzberg indicated that this was 12 Mr. Howd's petition. But I would submit to 13 the Court that Mr. Howd appears to be acting 14 on behalf of the Church of Scientology. We 15 don't really take issue with that. And the 16 reason we don't take issue with that is 17 because it allows us to present the larger 18 picture of what this cases is about. It is 19 not just Mr. Minton and Mr. Howd, it is 20 Mr. Minton and his position in the Church of 21 Scientology, their position and their rights 22 under the First Amendment as well. And it's 23 that balancing of interests that we're 24 trying to effect. 25 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, I want to be 18 1 sure I understand something. I apologize 2 for interrupting you, but you touched on 3 something that got my attention, and I 4 thought we needed to address it. Do I 5 understand you correctly that you are 6 recognizing, then, that this is not 7 Richard W. Howd, H-O-W-D, Jr. as an 8 individual as much as you're talking about 9 the Church of Scientology or both? 10 MR. HOWIE: Let me put it this way, 11 Your Honor, to answer your question. 12 THE COURT: Because this takes on a 13 different perspective if this is just two 14 individuals. 15 MR. HOWIE: That's just it. We don't 16 think that is case about two individuals. I 17 think Mr. Howd, in the way he formulated his 18 petition, made that clear. Otherwise, 19 Mr. Howd would not be asking the Court to 20 enjoin Mr. Minton from the 17 locations of 21 Downtown Clearwater where he does not aver 22 any kind of property interest in those 17 23 locations. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Well that's what I 25 wanted to be sure up front. Okay. 19 1 MR. HOWIE: And we are setting aside 2 any of the normal objections we would have 3 concerning Mr. Howd's legal standing to ask 4 the Court to keep an injunction. It is 5 clear what this case is about from the very 6 nature of his temporary injunction request. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Now you are then 8 basically telling me that you recognize that 9 Mr. Howd is an agent of the church, or at 10 least they're one in the same? 11 MR. HOWIE: For purposes of our own 12 request for relief, yes. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. HOWIE: For that limited purpose. 15 Otherwise, we could just go forward 16 attacking the injunction on the basis of the 17 elements of the injunction. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Well that's what I 19 wanted to be sure of here is what we had. 20 MR. HOWIE: Concerning both his 21 standing, his right to a remedy at law, the 22 irreparable injury that he's alleging and so 23 on. We are setting those considerations 24 aside so that the Court can forge an order 25 that will address the entire situation and 20 1 not one single incident that occurred on 2 October 31. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. HOWIE: Now Mr. Howd in his 5 petition alleges these events on October 31 6 and alleges that he was placed in fear as a 7 result. 8 THE COURT: Just a moment. Hold it 9 right there. Mr. Bailiff? No beepers, no 10 cell phones in this courtroom. Would you 11 take that one into possession please and 12 hold it until the end of this hearing? 13 THE BAILIFF: Yes, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Let me make this real clear 15 right now. No beepers, no cell phones. Get 16 it back at the end of the hearing. You may 17 proceed, sir. 18 MR. HOWIE: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 Mr. Howd in his petition indicates that he 20 was placed in fear or fears harm from the 21 Respondent. And that's the grounds for his 22 injunction. I would simply point out that 23 in the course of this proceeding we are 24 prepared to present evidence to the Court 25 that, in fact, Mr. Howd was well aware of 21 1 those facts that he avers in his petition 2 prior to this confrontation on October 31. 3 He was aware of prior incidents and he was 4 aware of certain postings on the Internet by 5 the Respondent. And yet he behaved in a 6 fashion that we will present evidence of 7 towards the Respondent by placing himself in 8 direct physical proximity to the Respondent 9 even at times barring the Respondent's way 10 on the night in question. 11 Mr. Hertzberg questioned the relevancy 12 of this information and evidence. In fact, 13 we contend that it's highly relevant to 14 demonstrate to the Court what exactly is 15 going on, what exactly the tactics were that 16 were exercised by Mr. Howd on the night in 17 question to show the Court that this is an 18 ongoing pattern of behavior and tactics by 19 members of the Church of Scientology as a 20 means of barring Mr. Minton from placarding 21 or from picketing certain locations. 22 This goes to the very nature of the 23 injunction since it concerns their 24 foreknowledge concerning his activities and 25 their own responsibility and contribution to 22 1 the actions that they complain of. It would 2 also assist the Court in understanding 3 better how to create an injunction in this 4 case that will work. 5 Concerning the injunctive order of the 6 Court, keeping the Respondent at least 150 7 yards from all of the designated location, 8 we understand that this will be contended. 9 However, we plan to present both evidence 10 and legal argument that such a distance 11 unduly burdens Mr. Minton's right to the 12 exercise of free speech. And we would cite 13 two cases, including U.S. Supreme Court 14 cases where, in fact, such a distance or 15 even a lesser distance was struck down as 16 unduly burdensome in the exercise of free 17 speech. The Court may already be aware of 18 such cases involving protesters at women's 19 clinics. 20 Setting aside any concern about the 21 failure to plead irreparable harm, we would 22 also point out our concern that this 23 injunction is being used as a means to 24 prevent future alleged criminal conduct or 25 unlawful conduct. This is not exactly the 23 1 proper application of an equitable remedy 2 such as injunction. We would be prepared to 3 argue that, in fact, they are attempting to 4 enjoin what they call -- what could be 5 called future criminal behavior, which is 6 not, in fact, the function of an injunction. 7 In order to understand this case fully 8 we need to be able to present the Court with 9 certain videotapes concerning similar 10 confrontations as well as this confrontation 11 so the Court will understand the pattern and 12 what needs to be addressed in the injunction 13 order. This is why we are asking the Court 14 to modify the injunction. First, to 15 eliminate the 150-yard restriction, which 16 again, is unduly burdensome of his First 17 Amendment rights, and to modify the 18 temporary injunction as Mr. Hertzberg 19 addressed, avoid any intentional or willful 20 physical contact between the Respondent and 21 the Petitioner, but at the same time to 22 enjoin members of the Church of Scientology, 23 including Mr. Howd, but not limited to 24 Mr. Howd, from placing themselves in such a 25 way as to be a physical bar to his progress 24 1 when is attempting to picket these locations 2 and not to harass or commit acts of violence 3 against him, just as he is not to 4 commit -- harass or commit acts of violence 5 against them. 6 It is my understanding that the 7 Petitioner does not want the Court to 8 proceed to what amounts to our own request 9 for injunctive relief. I have two responses 10 to that. First, it's really a matter of 11 doing equity in this case and balancing 12 interests: The First Amendment interests of 13 both the Church of Scientology and 14 Mr. Minton. And in order to effect that 15 balance, if Mr. Howd comes in here on behalf 16 of the Church of Scientology, necessarily 17 certain restrictions must apply to their 18 behavior so that Mr. Minton can comply with 19 an order of this Court. 20 Second, on a more procedural note, the 21 Petitioner is concerned that we are asking 22 for an injunction without having presented 23 the Court with an affidavit. Rule 1.610, 24 although it speaks of affidavits, does not 25 necessarily require affidavits where, in 25 1 fact, we are in a position to present 2 evidence and testimony pertaining to our own 3 request. This evidence and information 4 would not come as a surprise to Petitioner 5 or his counsel, and we ask the Court for the 6 opportunity to present such evidence today 7 so that, again, the Court is fully advised 8 on all the premises and can issue an order 9 which does equity in this case. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. 11 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, since we 12 have the burden of going forward, may I just 13 very briefly respond? On the issue of First 14 Amendment protection, for protection of 15 Mr. Minton's purported First Amendment 16 activities clearly, and I've not made the 17 full argument about the law because I assume 18 Your Honor would want to hear that at the 19 end after the evidences is presented. 20 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 21 MR. HERTZBERG: So I will only note in 22 passing that assaulting people is not a 23 First Amendment protected activity. And 24 making threats, the United States Supreme 25 Court has said, making the kind of threats 26 1 that we will prove have been made on the 2 Internet is not First Amendment protected 3 activity. So I just want to, for the 4 moment, make sure that we are 5 focusing -- we're not blanketing or 6 counsel's not suggesting that all of 7 Mr. Minton's activities are protected by the 8 First Amendment. Because, Your Honor, will 9 have ample opportunity to see that the kind 10 of activities which he's engaged in which 11 culminated on the assault on the Petitioner 12 are not protected in any fashion by the 13 First Amendment. 14 As far as burdening Mr. Minton in his 15 efforts to get his message out, I suggest to 16 Your Honor that if we have a final 17 injunction which incorporates the language 18 that the opposing side says they're willing 19 to agree to and with the proviso that there 20 be a physical delimitation, it will not 21 burden any lawful -- future lawful protests 22 or picketing that Mr. Minton may want to 23 engage in, assuming he doesn't hit anybody 24 else. But it will not burden him. He's 25 very adept at giving media interviews, being 27 1 on television, talking to the Press. And he 2 can hold his signs and chant what he wants 3 to chant, but we would maintain at a 4 distance. 5 And in the cases that we will cite at 6 the conclusion of this proceeding you will 7 see that the Courts, including at my learned 8 adversary, has mentioned that the courts 9 find that they can draw the line and prevent 10 the kind of violence that has already 11 occurred by having a physical barrier, a 12 physical delimitation. And we're not 13 talking about banning, by the way, anybody 14 else; we're only talking about Mr. Minton. 15 There are plenty of people that also 16 come, that may want to come, and they may it 17 please the to talk, and they may want to say 18 what they're entitled to say under the First 19 Amendment, and they're not implicated in 20 this proceeding at all. We're talking about 21 one individual whom we maintain has 22 forfeited his right for the moment to engage 23 on the same level of First Amendment 24 activities as others because of the threats 25 and because of the violence. 28 1 Now on this issue about whether other 2 Scientologists besides the Petitioner can be 3 protected, the issue, Your Honor, is a very 4 straightforward one. This is, and I meant 5 it, this is Mr. Howd's petition. He is the 6 Petitioner. But Your Honor, as the judicial 7 officer here, is entitled to protect all 8 Scientologists. Because what good would it 9 do if the protection were only limited to 10 Mr. Howd in this instance and the next time 11 Mr. Minton decided to assault someone else? 12 Then we'd be back here and you'd issue an 13 order that he has to stay a distance away 14 from -- and not assault the other person. I 15 mean -- Your Honor, I think, understands -- 16 THE COURT: Mr. Hertzberg, that's what 17 I was making reference to earlier. This 18 could go on ad infinitum. 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Sure. 20 THE COURT: And I think -- 21 MR. HERTZBERG: Sure. And the threats, 22 by the way, the Internet threats, were made 23 against others. They're general. So 24 Mr. Howd does not come here as an agent. 25 He's not an agent here. He's not legally 29 1 binding anybody in the church. He comes on 2 his own. But Your Honor will find, I 3 believe on the evidence, and we'll revisit 4 it at the conclusion, that there's a 5 significant governmental interest which Your 6 Honor can effectuate through permanent 7 relief that will be served by keeping 8 certain restrictions on Mr. Minton, some of 9 which already are not contested and one of 10 which really is. 11 And lastly, on the -- and I will sit 12 down, the comments by Mr. Howie about their 13 need to be forward. Your Honor, there has 14 been no allegation and they don't make one 15 in their papers that any Scientologists, 16 much less the Petitioner, ever hit 17 Mr. Minton. No Scientologist has ever been 18 arrested in connection with any events 19 surrounding Mr. Minton. 20 And I would submit to Your Honor that 21 this is -- leaving aside the procedural 22 irregularity of their attempt to modify the 23 injunction by bringing a whole new 24 counter-injunction proceeding within this 25 proceeding, and leaving aside the extreme 30 1 complications that that would cause in terms 2 of evidentiary rulings and the length of 3 these proceedings and perhaps other counsel 4 having to come in to represent others who 5 would be bound by the proposed 6 counter-injunction that they're suggesting, 7 I would suggest to Your Honor the record is 8 inadequate. 9 They don't say Mr. Howd hit Mr. Minton 10 and they don't, in fact, say any 11 Scientologists has ever done it. And I 12 would submit to Your Honor that we take this 13 one step at a time, and the one step that we 14 need it take now, and I know Mr. Johnson is 15 itching to get ready with the presentation, 16 is what the terms of the permanent 17 injunction are that the Petitioner is able 18 to receive as leave for this Court because 19 of the actions of this gentleman. Thank 20 you. 21 THE COURT: Ready to proceed? 22 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Yes, sir. 23 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. Your Honor, 24 Petitioner would like to invoke the -- 25 THE COURT: Rule? Invoke the rule? 31 1 MR. JOHNSON: -- rule in this case. 2 THE COURT: All right. All of the 3 witnesses for either side other than the 4 parties, anybody that's going to be a 5 perspective witness, would you come forward? 6 I'll swear you in at this time, please. If 7 you all would just sort of line up across 8 here and I'll swear you all in. 9 (THEREUPON, ALL PERSPECTIVE WITNESSES WERE PLACED 10 UNDER OATH.) 11 THE COURT: All right. Now ladies and 12 gentlemen put your hands down. I'm going to 13 ask you to wait outside until you're called 14 in to testify. And while you're waiting 15 outside, please do not discuss this case or 16 anything to do with this case among 17 yourselves or with anybody else. You can 18 talk about anything else. That's fine. But 19 just not this particular case. 20 Somebody's been in here, when they go 21 back outside, don't ask them what they were 22 asked or anything like. After this is over 23 then you, of course, are free to talk to 24 anybody. And let me caution if you, please. 25 If you violate this there's a good chance 32 1 any testimony you've given would not be 2 allowed to received or any testimony that 3 you're about to give would not be received 4 or any testimony you give would be stricken. 5 And also please, there is a possibility of 6 contempt of court if this is violated. Does 7 anybody have any questions about what I said 8 now, what I'm asking you to do? Everybody 9 think you can do that? 10 All right. We'll call you when we're 11 ready for you, if y'all wait outside, 12 please. There's some waiting rooms over 13 here. They're all around places. Thank 14 you. 15 All right. Are we ready? 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, Your Honor, I'd like 17 to call as my first witness Petitioner, 18 Richard Howd. 19 THE COURT: All right. If you'd come 20 forward. Madam Clerk will swear him in. 21 THEREUPON, 22 RICHARD HOWD, 23 WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY 24 SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 25 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, in connection 33 1 with his testimony we have a tape and a 2 video that he will have to refer to in order 3 to complete his testimony. And I don't know 4 quite how Your Honor suggests we do this. 5 This is a videotape furnished to counsel and 6 we have a machine here to demonstrate it. 7 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Mr. Johnson, it's 8 up to you. Doesn't make any difference to 9 me. 10 THE COURT: Well let me come at it this 11 way. You all may move at will so you can 12 see. I don't know if he has the control or 13 if this gentleman's going to control it. 14 MR. JOHNSON: This gentleman, Your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. And that's fine with 17 me. Like I said, counsel, you can move at 18 will. Everybody work it out. Try not to 19 block anybody or anything like that. In 20 fact, if you want, we can push that back 21 even further back that way and cock it over 22 a little bit. Its still kind of at a wicked 23 angle facing me. And Mr. Howd, can you see 24 the screen from where you are? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 34 1 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, I'd like 2 marked as Exhibit 1 this videotape, which is 3 taken from the security camera outside Fort 4 Harrison and will be identified by Mr. Howd. 5 THE COURT: All right. Have you put a 6 sticker on it? 7 THE CLERK: No, Judge Your Honor, I 8 haven't received it. 9 THE COURT: Please, let's -- you keep 10 track of it for me. 11 THE CLERK: I'll take care of it. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. JOHNSON: 15 Q Please state your name and what is your 16 connection with the Church of Scientology, if any? 17 A My name is Richard Howd, and I work with 18 the Office of Special Affairs where I coordinate and 19 liaise with the -- 20 THE COURT: Can everybody hear him all 21 right? Mr. Bailiff, check that volume on 22 the speaker. Is it on? 23 THE BAILIFF: Yes Your Honor. 24 MR. JOHNSON: I'm having trouble 25 hearing him from here, Judge. 35 1 THE COURT: Mr. Howd, do me a favor. 2 See if that on/off switch -- there's an 3 on/off switch see if it's on. There we go. 4 Now let's proceed. 5 BY MR. JOHNSON: 6 Q Mr. Howd, what connection do you have with 7 security of the church and the parishioners and the 8 staff? 9 A I liaise with security in that I am 10 responsible for ensuring anybody from outs -- 11 external to the church who could pose a threat to the 12 church when they come, that I alert security and make 13 sure they know who these people are, what they're 14 capable of, things like that. 15 Q On the evening of October 31st this year 16 were you doing anything in connection with your 17 assignment to liaise with security? 18 A Yes, sir, I was. 19 Q Please tell the Court what that was. 20 A I was -- we found out that Mr. Minton flew 21 into Clearwater and was picketing in front The Fort 22 Harrison. I took my video camera and met with him 23 out front of The Fort Harrison to videotape his 24 actions and activities. 25 Q Why were you videotaping his activities? 36 1 A Well, on advice of counsel, Mr. Shaw, 2 Andrew Shaw, we were videotaping his activities to 3 document anything that he was doing, any threats he 4 was making or any possible physical threats he could 5 make against Scientology staff or parishioners. 6 Q Was your purpose also to prohibit him from 7 committing any violence by being videotaped? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q So -- 10 A It was -- I'm sorry. It was to ensure that 11 he knew that he was being videotaped. 12 Q But you were doing it pubicly so he could 13 see you there? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q All right. So tell me and tell the Court 16 what happened. 17 A That evening when Mr. Minton showed up I 18 immediately started videotaping him. 19 Q About what time was that? 20 A I would say that was probably 9:30. 21 Between 9:30 to 10:00. 22 Q All right. 23 A Maybe a little later. 24 Q All right. 25 A And he was -- there was Mr. Minton, there 37 1 was Miss Brooks, and they were walking up and down 2 the front of the Fort Harrison at the main entrance, 3 and I was videotaping Mr. Minton as he walked, and as 4 he was yelling statements and things like that. 5 Q All right. In addition to the personal 6 videotape you had in your hand, was there any 7 security videotape permanently installed at the Fort 8 Harrison? 9 A Yes, sir. There's security cameras that 10 keep an eye on the front of the Fort Harrison. 11 Q And this videotape we're about to show, 12 Exhibit 1, that came from the security camera in 13 front of the Fort Harrison; is that correct? 14 A I believe so. I believe so. I believe it 15 was a security camera by the garage entrance. 16 Q Okay. Okay. Thank you. All right. So 17 then did anything unusual happen at that time? 18 A Yes. Mr. Minton was there, he was very 19 belligerent. He was -- 20 Q Who was? I'm sorry. 21 A Mr. Minton. 22 Q Okay. 23 A And while we were walking, the first 24 incident was I was walking backwards; I was in front 25 of him a few paces, and he took his picket sign and 38 1 he pushed it into my camera. I started to reel back 2 but I steadied myself and kind of moved to a 3 different position to continue the videotape. While 4 this was going on he was yelling different statements 5 critical of the church. 6 Q Are you responding in any way? 7 A I did not say one word to him that night, 8 sir. 9 Q Did you make any overt actions toward him? 10 A Not -- the only thing I did was videotape 11 him. 12 Q All right. And how far away from -- you 13 from him, were you when you were videotaping? 14 A I would say I was a couple paces away. 15 Q Five feet or more? 16 A I would say probably between -- I mean, it 17 varied because we were walking, but I would say 18 probably on the average around four feet or four to 19 five feet. 20 Q Did interfere with his passageway? 21 A No, sir, I didn't. 22 Q All right. Go ahead tell the Court what 23 happened. 24 A Prior to the incident where he struck me 25 with the picket sign we were walking down Fort 39 1 Harrison and then we went west to the north side of 2 the Fort Harrison where he turns around and grabs the 3 strap to my video camera and tries to pull it out of 4 my hands. At that time -- 5 Q What did you do when that was done? 6 A I just held onto my camera, I just held 7 onto the camera. 8 Q You didn't attempt to strike him? 9 A No, sir, not at all. 10 Q Okay. So then what happened? 11 A Well he eventually let go of the strap and 12 I continued videotaping. And at that time he turned 13 around and with his picket sign pushed me into the 14 north side of the Fort Harrison Hotel. At that 15 moment I had no place to go. My back was directly to 16 the wall and the picket sign was right here to my 17 chest. I did reach back and push it out, push it 18 away from me, and then I moved off to the side so my 19 back wouldn't be against the wall. 20 Q Well that was -- you wouldn't call that a 21 striking, you would call that a pushing? 22 A No, that was a push. That was a push. It 23 wasn't like a strike with a picket sign. 24 Q All right. So what happened next? 25 A At that point we walked back to the corner 40 1 right along Fort Harrison and Mr. Minton was standing 2 there. And he said, I think it's time to call the 3 police or something to that effect. And he picked up 4 his cell phone and he started dialing the number and 5 put it up to his ear. 6 At that point he started to walk 7 across -- I believe it's Park. He started to walk 8 across that street towards the Presbyterian church 9 and he was out in the road when I started to follow 10 him, and he turned around. He had a crazed look in 11 his eyes, and he said, don't be following me. 12 The next thing I know, I did not have any 13 glasses on because I was videotaping. The edge of 14 the picket sign caught me right -- right there. Took 15 me totally by surprise; snapped my head back; I lost 16 balance and fell down. 17 Q How did the edge of the picket sign catch 18 you in the eye? 19 A Well -- it wasn't. 20 Q What did he do to cause that? 21 A It was a jabbing. He jabbed the picket 22 sign into my face. 23 Q Were you injured? 24 A Yes, I was. 25 Q Did you go to the hospital? 41 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q Did the force of the strike or jabbing 3 cause you to fall? 4 A Yes, it did. 5 Q All right. Mr. Howd, you have previously 6 looked at this Exhibit 1 with me. And I ask you does 7 it fairly and accurately reflect what you have 8 described here? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 MR. JOHNSON: I'd like to roll the 11 picture, Judge, if I may. 12 THE COURT: You may. 13 THE COURT REPORTER: Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. 15 THE COURT REPORTER: Is there audio 16 that I need to write? 17 THE COURT: Will there be sound? 18 MR. JOHNSON: On this particular one -- 19 THE COURT: Here's where I'm going. 20 Court reporter she's not -- probably not 21 going to be able to take all this down. 22 What I would like is that this, once this is 23 done, it will be marked for I.D. and I want 24 it in evidence. And, Donna, you won't have 25 to take it. We'll have the video. 42 1 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, I believe this one 2 does not have sound. This came from the 3 different type of camera; is that correct? 4 THE WITNESS: It's just traffic if we 5 hear anything. 6 THE COURT: Traffic in the background? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's quite a 8 distance away. 9 THE COURT: But as it stands right now, 10 even if the next video has sound on it, I 11 want those put into the record, they'll 12 speak for themselves and she doesn't have to 13 attempt to try and take each word down, 14 because we could stopping and starting this 15 forever. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. That's 17 acceptable. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Devlamings, any 19 objection here? 20 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: No objection. 21 BY MR. JOHNSON: 22 Q Now where are you in that picture? 23 A We are on the north side of The Fort 24 Harrison at that point. 25 Q Whose in the white shirt? 43 1 A Oh, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, I am standing on 2 the corner of the street there to the right of that 3 post, the concrete post. 4 Q In the light colored shirt? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Whose standing to the left of the concrete 7 post? 8 A That is Mr. Minton and Miss Brooks. 9 Q All right. Now you're walking? 10 A Yes, that's -- 11 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Can you back 12 that up and show that? 13 BY MR. JOHNSON: 14 Q Now you had previously described being 15 struck with the sign and falling down. Could you 16 tell the Court if this is what you were talking 17 about? 18 A Yes, sir. That is what happened. 19 Q You're both walking across Pierce Street 20 now; is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 BY MR. JOHNSON: 23 Q All right. Now go ahead. 24 A Mr. Minton is ahead of me. This is where 25 he turns around and jabs me in the face. 44 1 Q And where in the face did it jab you? 2 A It caught me -- it was -- it was -- it was 3 like he was headed for my left eye actually, because 4 it caught me right over the eye where I got an 5 abrasion underneath the eye and a small cut above the 6 eye. 7 Q And you did go to the hospital? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q And you did have a photograph after you 10 left the hospital? 11 A Yes. 12 Q I'll show that later. What happened next? 13 MR. JOHNSON: Will you roll the 14 picture. 15 BY MR. JOHNSON: 16 Q And See if you can describe this. Now 17 that's you lying on the sidewalk? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Did anything unusual happen? 20 A Well at that time -- after I fell down I 21 didn't see Mr. Minton or Miss Brooks, but -- 22 Q Have you since learned that a police car 23 rolled up? 24 A Yes, sir. I heard there was one at the 25 intersection who actually saw the incidents. 45 1 MR. JOHNSON: Let's back it up so the 2 Court can see that. I will be calling the 3 officer, Your Honor. And I want to make 4 sure we -- okay. Now roll it again, please, 5 sir. 6 BY MR. JOHNSON: 7 Q Now after -- you didn't call the police or 8 anything. 9 A No, sir. 10 Q You were on the ground, stunned? 11 A Yes. 12 Q All right. Okay. And that's the 13 Clearwater Police Department. All right, thank you. 14 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, I'd like this 15 marked as Exhibit 2. 16 THE COURT: All right, which is -- 17 MR. JOHNSON: The photograph taken 18 immediately afterwards. 19 THE COURT: Attorneys, one other thing 20 that would help. When we take a break, I 21 try to go about an hour at a time when we 22 take breaks, come up to the clerk and give 23 her whatever you're going to be introducing 24 and let her start marking them so we don't 25 have to keep waiting. I'd like to get this 46 1 all done as soon as possible as much as it's 2 going in evidence. 3 MR. JOHNSON: All right. 4 THE COURT: All right. Now you want 5 these marked for I.D.? 6 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I would offer 7 in evidence this particular one photograph. 8 THE COURT: All right. The clerk is 9 going to mark them for us. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, we have a number 11 of Internet markings. 12 THE COURT: Internet markings? 13 MR. JOHNSON: Internet postings. 14 THE COURT: These have been downloaded 15 and we have copies? 16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I have an 17 expert to explain it. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. JOHNSON: 20 Q Mr. Howd, I show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 21 No. 2 for identification and ask if you recognize 22 that photograph. 23 A Yes, sir, I do. 24 Q And who is shown in the photograph? 25 A That is me, sir. 47 1 Q All right. Could you hand -- give it to 2 me. I'll hand it to the judge. 3 A Okay. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, may I offer 5 this? 6 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Devlaming 7 you have a copy of what she's showing? 8 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Make sure. It's 9 the same, paul? Is this the one picture? 10 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. And, here, you 11 can look at my copy. 12 BY MR. JOHNSON: 13 Q What does the photograph show? 14 A That shows the effects of the picket sign 15 after it was jabbed into my face. 16 Q And when was that photograph taken? 17 A That was taken the night -- that night 18 after I got out of the hospital. 19 Q And show on your face to the Court where 20 you were struck and where you were injured. 21 A Well I was struck -- the edge of the picket 22 sign indicated me, like, directly over my left eye, 23 which created the abrasion underneath the eye and the 24 cut along the eyebrow. 25 Q All right. Thank you. Let me have the 48 1 photograph. 2 Mr. Howd, you are the Petitioner in this 3 case, and you signed the petition for injunction; did 4 you not? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q In the petition -- 7 MR. JOHNSON: And does Your Honor have 8 that before Your Honor? 9 THE COURT: I do. 10 BY MR. JOHNSON: 11 Q Did you review the petition 12 as -- particularly as to the locations in Clearwater 13 and Pinellas County that were owned or leased by the 14 Church of Scientology? 15 A Yes, sir, I did. 16 Q And were they set out in that petition? 17 A I'm sorry. 18 Q Were these locations set out in that 19 petition? 20 A Yes, they were. 21 Q And you also saw the injunction entered by 22 Judge Penick; did you not? 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q Which included the same locations in his 25 injunction? 49 1 A The same exact documents, yes. 2 Q I'd like to ask you to -- 3 MR. JOHNSON: May I approach the 4 witness? 5 THE COURT: You may, sir. 6 BY MR. JOHNSON: 7 Q If you'll turn to the location of the 8 church locations. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Counsel, this is at Page 10 2 of the petition. 11 BY MR. JOHNSON: 12 Q All right. Starting with little "A" and 13 going down the list, describe the buildings of the 14 Church of Scientology and how they're used. Fort 15 Harrison, is that the location where the attack took 16 place? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q And how is the Fort Harrison Hotel used? 19 A Well the Fort Harrison Hotel is used as a 20 hotel. It's also used as -- it has administration 21 offices, restaurants for Scientologists as well as 22 spiritual counseling. That is it's main function. 23 Q And there are rooms overlooking Fort 24 Harrison Avenue that are used for religious 25 counseling? 50 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Is that sometimes called auditing? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And they're located on what floor? 5 A They're located on the fourth, fifth, and 6 sixth floor. 7 Q And from those auditing rooms can you hear 8 sound coming the from the street? 9 A Yes, you can, if they're loud enough. Like 10 if somebody's yelling or screaming you can. 11 Q All right. The next item Number B, 12 Sandcastle building, that's located at 200 North 13 Osceola? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And describe how that is used. 16 A That's also used for auditing as well as -- 17 Q You said "auditing". That's religious 18 counseling? 19 A Yes, sir, religious counseling. As well as 20 religious education, Scientology scriptures, and 21 things like that. 22 Q Is it used for residences for parishioners 23 coming to Clearwater? 24 A Yes, sir. Yes, it is. 25 Q So both the Fort Harrison Hotel and the 51 1 Sandcastle buildings are used for residential 2 purposes among other purposes; is that right? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And the West Coast building, No. C? 5 A That's an administrative building. 6 Q I'm sorry. 7 A That's an administrative building there. 8 Q Administrative building? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Has offices there? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Of the Scientology workers? 13 A Yes. And the different departments will be 14 located there. It's mostly used as -- for the 15 administrators of different departments and areas. 16 There's no scripture counseling or training going on 17 there. 18 Q Okay. All right. The Coachman building at 19 50O Cleveland Street? 20 A Yes, that's one of the main buildings for 21 training, religious education, things like that. 22 Q The Clearwater Bank building at 5O3 23 Cleveland Street? 24 A That holds my offices, so it has 25 administrators' offices there, as well as the staff 52 1 dining rooms. The staff dining rooms. 2 Q The staff dining rooms? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q The Scientologists who are performing 5 services at the Fort Harrison Hotel down on 210 South 6 Fort Harrison, do they come to the Clearwater Bank 7 building during the day? 8 A Yes, sir, they do, a number of times. 9 Q On how many occasions? 10 A I would say -- it varies, but at least 11 probably four or five times. They come for 12 breakfast, lunch, dinner, as well as any staff 13 meetings to be held there. 14 Q Could you estimate how many people or 15 Scientologists, staff members, are coming from The 16 Fort Harrison to the Clearwater Bank building on 17 these four or five times a day? 18 A Every staff member in the Fort Harrison as 19 well as staff in the Coachman building and in other 20 buildings. There is approximately a thousand staff 21 employed by the church. 22 Q So they're out there on the streets between 23 the Fort Harrison and the bank building four times a 24 day? 25 A Yes, sir. At least. 53 1 Q Does that pretty well fill up the 2 sidewalks? 3 A Yes, it does. They get quite packed. 4 Q All right. The Hacienda Gardens? 5 A That is where the staff hotels are. That's 6 where staff that work at the church live. 7 Q They're residences? 8 A Yes. 9 Q The Yachtsman on Cleveland Street? 10 A The Yachtsman is a hotel for Scientologists 11 that come from out of town for church services stay 12 there. 13 Q And here again it's for residences while 14 they're taking service there? 15 A Yes. 16 Q The Quality Inn on U.S. Highway 19 North? 17 A The Quality Inn houses the children of 18 staff as well as the families live there. And that's 19 where the children have their schooling and things 20 like that. 21 Q The Mariner Hotel on 711 Cleveland Street? 22 A That's another hotel for visiting 23 parishioners. 24 Q The Bayside Student Hotels? 25 A Those are -- well, it's -- Bayside is where 54 1 the training was. Those are three hotels on Fort 2 Harrison that hold students from other churches that 3 send their staff to the church to train. 4 Q So those three buildings, the J, K, and L, 5 Bayside Student Hotel, Clipper Student, and 6 Tradewinds all hold visiting Scientologists for 7 residence? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q While they're here in Clearwater and 10 performing staff functions and studying? 11 A Yes, sir, that's correct. 12 Q All right. The Osceola Inn on North 13 Osceola Avenue? 14 A That is the building that's just been 15 purchased and it's being remodeled. But that will 16 also be used, I believe, at this time for hotel 17 space. 18 Q At the present time, though, until it's 19 completed, it's not being used? 20 A No, no. It's just -- 21 Q But you plan to use it for residence of 22 parishioners coming to Clearwater? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q The Burnside building? 25 A That's an administrative building. 55 1 Q Say again? 2 A That's an administrative building. 3 Q Auxilliary building on North Fort Harrison? 4 A Also an administrative building. 5 Q Students College on 531 Franklin Street? 6 A That is where the staff study the different 7 Scientology courses. 8 Q All right. And Q site of the former Grey 9 Moss Hotel? What's happening there? 10 A Well that's where the latest building is 11 being constructed. 12 Q That's under construction now? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q All right. All right, sir. 15 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me just one 16 moment. You may examine. 17 THE COURT: No further questions? 18 MR. JOHNSON: No, sir. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Devlaming, sir? 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: 22 Q Mr. Howd, if I understand your petition 23 correctly, you want Mr. Minton to stay 150 yards away 24 from all the locations that have just been told to 25 Judge Penick? 56 1 A That's correct. 2 Q You understand that these locations 3 basically pepper all around our city? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q So in other words, it would be all right 6 with you if he stood somewhere had Largo with a 7 protest sign? 8 A It would be totally fine with me. 9 Q That would be fine with you. All right. 10 Now of all these places, I understand you reside at 11 Hacienda Gardens, right? 12 A Yes, sir. That's where I live. 13 Q And your office is in the Clearwater Bank 14 building. 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q And as to the other places, you may go 17 there from time to time but they are not your primary 18 place where you reside or where you work? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Now do you have a problem with Robert 21 Minton protesting the church? 22 A I have no problem with Robert Minton 23 protesting the church. There is a problem with 24 Mr. Minton assaulting me or other Scientologists. 25 Q So you would have no problem, then, if 57 1 Mr. Minton could walk up and down the sidewalk right 2 in front of all these different residence and places 3 of business in an orderly fashion protesting the 4 church so long as he didn't assault a church member. 5 Is that accurate? 6 A Sure. My function there was to monitor him 7 and make sure that he knew that he was under -- that 8 he was being videotaped so that he wouldn't assault. 9 Q Okay. And so long as no assault takes 10 place, it's all right with you that he 11 exercise -- what are you looking at? Are you looking 12 at one of the lawyers? 13 A No -- 14 Q It's all right with you that he exercise 15 his First Amendment rights by going up and down the 16 sidewalk in front of the Fort Harrison, correct? 17 A Yes, that's correct. 18 Q Did you have an opportunity to read this 19 petition before you signed it? 20 A Yes, I did. 21 Q Is it accurate? 22 A Yes, it is. 23 Q And the abrasion that you showed to Judge 24 Penick in the photograph was where on your face? 25 A It was -- was a cut over on the left 58 1 eyebrow and an abrasion right underneath the eye. 2 Q Okay. Anything else? 3 A I'm sorry. 4 Q Anything else visible on your face? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. Let me read something to you. On 7 Page 4 of your verified petition it says, as a result 8 the of Respondent's attack Petitioner was bleeding 9 from above the right eye and suffered abrasions below 10 the eye. Didn't you just tell us it was your left 11 eye? 12 A Yes, it was the left eye. 13 Q So this is false. 14 A Yeah, it was my left eye. 15 Q Okay. But earlier you do talk about the 16 left eye but signify in this petition that it was 17 both. You're correcting that now, that it was only 18 one eye? 19 A Yeah, there was only one eye. I had the 20 camera over my right eye. And we jabbed the picket 21 sign, he jabbed it right into my left eye. 22 Q Did he ever throw you to the ground? 23 A No, he didn't. 24 Q Page 4, in addition Petitioner suffered 25 great pain in the lower right back and head from 59 1 being thrown to the ground. Is that accurate or 2 inaccurate? 3 A No, it is accurate. Mr. Minton did not 4 throw me to the ground. But from the surprise and 5 the force of the picket sign, it hit me in my face, 6 my head snapped back, I lost balance and fell to the 7 ground. 8 Q So he did not throw you to the ground? 9 A No, he did not. 10 Q You wish to correct that in your verified 11 petition? 12 A Let me see. It was on Page 4? 13 Q Right. 14 A Where does it say -- 15 Q Right about the middle. It says, 16 Petitioner suffered great pain in the lower right 17 back and head from being thrown to the ground. 18 Right? About smack middle of the page. 19 A Okay. I mean, that doesn't say Mr. Minton 20 threw me to the ground. 21 Q Well did anybody throw you to the ground? 22 A No. 23 Q Okay. You fell to the ground? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Now this surveillance photograph -- video 60 1 that Judge Penick saw, that does not show -- is that 2 a stationary video from one of the eaves at the 3 Church of Scientology? 4 A I'm not sure exactly where the camera is 5 located. They said it was a security camera that was 6 set up in the garage. 7 Q Okay. It's stationary, though? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Okay. Nobody's hand holding it to your 10 knowledge? 11 A Not to my knowledge. 12 Q All right. So we don't see what's going on 13 around the corner there. Let me go over what you say 14 was an assault by Mr. Minton. Off camera at one 15 point in time you and Mr. Minton are around the 16 left-hand corner as the viewing would be on this 17 camera, correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And you say that while you and Mr. Minton 20 are around that area that Minton assaulted you there 21 as well? He pushed the sign up against you? 22 A He pushed the sign up against me and also 23 grabbed the strap to my camera. 24 Q So he assaulted you around the corner as 25 well? 61 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you assault him? 3 A I did not touch him. 4 Q Could you explain to Judge Penick, then, 5 while within seconds thereafter Mr. Minton grabs his 6 cell phone and says, I've had enough, I'm going to 7 call the police? Why would he call the police if he 8 assaulted you? 9 A I have no idea. 10 Q So what we're going to hear on that video, 11 on the one that has the audio that's in the 12 possession of prosecutor, is Minton saying he's had 13 enough and he's calling the police? 14 A Or something to that effect. 15 Q And he starts to walk across the street. 16 A Yes, that's correct. 17 Q And you follow him. 18 A That's correct. 19 Q With your camera in his face. 20 A It wasn't in his face. I was about five 21 feet away from him at that time and -- at which time 22 he turned around and jabbed the picket sign into my 23 face. 24 Q And he says what? 25 A Don't you follow me. 62 1 Q Quit following me. And he turns around and 2 he holds out this protest placard, correct? 3 A No, that is totally incorrect. He did not 4 hold it up straight like that. He had it where the 5 edge -- and he did it like jabbed into the left side 6 of my face. 7 Q Mr. Howd, let me ask you something. Being 8 in the Bureau of Special Affairs -- 9 A It's Office of Special Affairs. 10 Q Office of Special Affairs. 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Is that what used to be called the 13 Guardian's Office? 14 A No. 15 Q Never was called the Guardian's Office 16 years ago? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q Are you in Department 20? 19 A Yes, I am. 20 Q Are you familiar with the Guardian's Office 21 being also Department 20? 22 A No, I'm not. I was the -- the Guardian's 23 Office was long before I ever became involved with 24 the church. 25 Q How long have you been a member of the 63 1 church? 2 A Since 1989. 3 Q Do you agree or disagree with the following 4 statement: A suppressive person may be deprived of 5 property or injured by any means by any Scientologist 6 without any discipline of a Scientologist. He may be 7 tricked, sued, or lied to, or destroyed. 8 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form of the 9 question. It's not cross of anything 10 brought on direct. It's irrelevant, 11 immaterial. He doesn't identify when that 12 was written and by whom, and if certainly 13 has no bearing on the issues before the 14 Court today. 15 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I'll lay a 16 predicate. 17 THE COURT: Lay a predicate. Let me do 18 one thing, too. Attorneys, I ask that you 19 keep a vigil out. I've noticed people 20 coming and going. I don't know whether they 21 are witnesses that are going to appear at a 22 later time, but I hold you both to the rule 23 in case you see somebody come in. Please 24 proceed. 25 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Thank you. 64 1 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: 2 Q You know who L. Ron Hubbard is? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q He started the Church of Scientology? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Are you familiar with his policy on what's 7 called fair game? 8 A I've never read his policy. 9 Q Okay. So you agree or disagree with what I 10 just read in open court? 11 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, please. I 12 have an objection. 13 THE COURT: All right. You do, sir. 14 Objection's overruled at this time. I'm 15 going to see what predicate's laid. Please 16 proceed. 17 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: 18 Q If that is a discipline of the church do 19 you agree or disagree with it, that that can be done 20 to others, suppressive persons? 21 A That is not from a policy I have ever read 22 in any of the church policies I've read. 23 Q Okay. So then here's the follow-up 24 question: Then you disavow that statement or that 25 policy if it is policy, correct? 65 1 A Totally. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Just a second. He's 3 assuming something is policy without laying 4 a predicate. He announced the to the Court 5 he would lay a predicate. I haven't seen a 6 predicate laid yet. So I object to it 7 without predicate being laid. 8 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: All right. 9 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: 10 Q In October 1967 founder L. Ron Hubbard 11 issued a policy letter entitled Penalties for Lower 12 Conditions. Did you read that in your readings of 13 Scientology? 14 A No, I don't recall ever reading that. 15 Q All right. Now when Mr. Minton comes to 16 town and you go out to videotape him, do you approve 17 or disprove of those that stop his egress, in other 18 words his abilities to walk up and down the street? 19 A I have never seen anybody stop his egress 20 up and down the street. 21 Q So that is not to be done as far as the 22 Church of Scientology. 23 A As far as I'm concerned. 24 Q Okay. So if we had a video of 25 Scientologists doing that, that would be against 66 1 policy, correct? 2 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Object to 3 unless he identifies what Scientologists, 4 what city, what country he's talking about. 5 Certainly I don't think he's talking 6 Clearwater. 7 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Well actually, 8 Mr. Johnson, we have a video, Your Honor, of 9 Clearwater July 11th, 1999. 10 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: 11 Q So if we see a videotape, Mr. Howd, you're 12 going to be sitting right at this table when it's 13 shown, of somebody stopping the egress of this man as 14 he's protesting, that would be against church policy, 15 correct? 16 A There's no church policy that explicitly 17 states that one does not stop the egress of someone 18 when they're outside picketing. I mean, what policy 19 are you talking about? 20 Q I'm asking you whether or not you're 21 allowed to do that. Is that part of the doctrine of 22 the church to stop them -- how about to harass 23 picketers? You harass picketers? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. 67 1 A That day I was videotaping Mr. Minton. I 2 did not say anything to him. I was there so that he 3 realized that he was being videotaped to keep him 4 from assaulting any Scientologists whether it was 5 staff or parishioners. I mean, little did I realize 6 I was going to be the one who was assaulted. 7 But that was my purpose there. It was not 8 to harass Mr. Minton. It was not to do anything of 9 that nature. It was on an advice of counsel to 10 document his activities in the front of my church. 11 Q Okay. So those then -- let me ask you 12 this: Would it be appropriate or inappropriate in 13 the Department of Special Affairs in the city of 14 Clearwater -- 15 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. I hate to 16 interrupt, but it's not a the department, 17 it's the office. There's no department. 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Okay. 20 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: 21 Q In the Office of Special Affairs to, as a 22 person protests, call them an adulter, say I'm going 23 to gather information and send it to your wife so she 24 can divorce you, or to use four letter words? Is 25 that all fair game. 68 1 A What do you mean by fair game? 2 Q By members of the Church of Scientology if 3 Mr. Minton is -- or any protester is walking up and 4 down, can Scientologists follow him and say things 5 like that, what do you think about being an 6 adulterer, Mr. Minton, do you like being an adulter; 7 I'm going to gather information send it to your wife; 8 and then using any kind of foul language or 9 four-letter words. Is that approved or disproved by 10 your Office of Special Affairs? 11 A I mean, it's a very general statement. I 12 don't -- 13 Q I'm trying to be real specific. I said can 14 you call them an adulter, can you say let me take 15 pictures of the lovebirds, maybe he and somebody he 16 may be seeing outside marriage, or anything of this 17 nature, or use four-letter words outside of your 18 church. 19 A That would be entirely up to the individual 20 that's out there that's -- whoever they may be, 21 that's -- 22 Q But I certainly is not done with your 23 knowledge or the Office of Special Affairs, or 24 approved? Let me just say approved. 25 A Approved? 69 1 Q Yes. 2 A Approved by the Office of Special Affairs? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Again, when you say approved by the Office 5 of Special Affairs is this -- it could also depend on 6 what did this person say to the person who's saying 7 that to them. I mean, it's just a very broad 8 statement to say do I approve or does somebody 9 approve in the Office of Special Affairs one way or 10 the other on this. I mean, there's no -- 11 Q Mr. Howd is there a edict -- 12 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. He did not 13 finish his answer. 14 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Oh, I'm sorry. 15 Go ahead. 16 A I mean, Mr. Minton has many times been very 17 belligerent in front of our church. If a 18 Scientologist is going to turn around and say the 19 same things to them under their First Amendment 20 rights, I mean, it's covered under the First 21 Amendment. We don't have policy one way or the other 22 in the Office of Special Affairs saying what can be 23 said and what can't be said. 24 Q There's no policy? 25 A Correct. 70 1 Q No policy? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Fair game? 4 A Fair game, I have never read that. 5 Q No, I mean in general terms. It's fair 6 game. If somebody gives it to you, you can give it 7 back to them, right? 8 A Okay, now, what do you mean by fair game? 9 Q Well, if Mr. Minton is saying things about 10 the Church of Scientology, you can say things about 11 Mr. Minton's private life? 12 A Again, there's no policy one way or the 13 other on this. It's up to an individual. If 14 Mr. Minton is protesting in front of the Church of 15 Scientology, if he's screaming or yelling belligerent 16 statements and a Scientologist is there and they care 17 to exercise their First Amendment rights, the church 18 is not going to stop him. 19 Q Fine. That's all I wanted you to say. So 20 then that's okay. That's fair game for them to 21 say -- exercise their First Amendment rights to 22 include insults, foul language, four-letter words if 23 they think they can use it if the comeback is 24 appropriate. 25 A It's up to the individual. ======== Subject: Cult v. Minton, 11-29-99 Hearing transcript, 2/5 From: Bob Minton Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:04:09 -0500 Message-ID: <56rd4s4rsi00el4qd1431p2ipuiqcp7qtm@4ax.com> 71 1 Q Up to the individual Scientologist. 2 A Or whatever. 3 Q Is the spiritual headquarters? On Fort 4 Harrison, the Fort Harrison? 5 A Spiritual headquarters? 6 Q Yes, where's the place of worship? 7 A Well there's counseling that can happen in 8 a number of different -- 9 Q Where do you go to worship? In all these 10 places that Mr. Johnson has read off, which is the 11 place where you go to worship as a church? 12 A Do you mean worship in a traditional sense 13 in a Christian sense? There is no place to worship 14 in, say, like the Christian sense of the word. 15 However, there is spiritual counseling in the church 16 that happens throughout the properties within 17 Clearwater. 18 Q Well let me ask you this. Is there one of 19 those 17 or 18 locations where a member of the public 20 that is not a member of Scientology can walk in off 21 the street and worship? Will you allow a member of 22 the public to walk in off the street and worship? 23 A There are -- worship in the sense of the 24 words you're using it is not part of the Scientology 25 custom. Okay? There are courses that one could 72 1 take. There's actually a church mission right in 2 Clearwater that is separate from the Flag Service 3 Organization of downtown Clearwater where anybody 4 could come off the street and take Scientology 5 spiritual counseling, study Scientology course, 6 pretty much the whole gamut. 7 But as far as worship, there is no -- this 8 is the -- this is the religion of Scientology. It's 9 not a Christian religion where somebody would come 10 and worship in a Christian sense or in a Moslem 11 since. It's a different religion. 12 Q Mr. Howd, did you have an opportunity to 13 review a videotape that was given to Mr. Johnson by 14 myself? 15 A I don't believe I did. 16 Q So in the last time before Judge Penick 17 adjourned and I gave Mr. Johnson a copy of a 18 videotape, you have not seen it? 19 A I have seen possibly parts of it. I have 20 seen possibly -- I mean, I've been looking at a lot 21 of -- 22 Q Well let me refresh your recollection. And 23 I'm sure Mr. Johnson can do this on redirect. If it 24 is one that you may have seen, it might be of an 25 incident in Boston last year. Does that refresh are 73 1 recollection? 2 A Okay. There was -- yes, where Mr. Minton 3 was arrested for assault and battery. 4 Q That's correct. And it had to do with a 5 placard, didn't it? 6 A Um. 7 Q And he was holding a protest sign, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q All right. And you saw the member of the 10 Church of Scientology provoke that incident and yell 11 to have the police called because Mr. Minton, in 12 walking up and down, came in contact with him. Do 13 you see that part? 14 MR. JOHNSON: Object. This proposed 15 tape has not yet been offered in evidence 16 and may well not be admitted in evidence and 17 unless it is, we suggest it's irrelevant. 18 Something that happened in Boston is 19 irrelevant to something that happened here 20 on Halloween Night this year. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Devlaming? 22 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I'll ask a 23 few other questions, but really what I need 24 to do is to show a pattern, Judge. And 25 that's what I'm asking. 74 1 THE COURT: Proceed. Lay a predicate. 2 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: All right. 3 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: 4 Q Have you ever seen a film involving the 5 Scientologists and Mr. Minton wherein the 6 Scientologists are provoking Minton, inviting Minton, 7 to either push him aside or to walk past him so that 8 they have to be pushed aside so that there has to be 9 a touching? Have you ever seen that? 10 A I have seen a video from Boston. The video 11 that basically when Mr. Minton was arrested where 12 they were, both Mr. Minton and some individuals from 13 the church, were involved. 14 Q Okay. Now I want you to characterize how 15 that individual, the one that was assaulted, was 16 acting towards Minton. Is that acceptable behavior 17 in the event that the Judge, allows us to play it in 18 this courtroom, or inacceptable (sic) behavior? 19 A Based on what? 20 Q On church doctrine. On what the Office of 21 Special Affairs says you're allowed to do. 22 A The Office of Special Affairs doesn't say 23 anybody is allowed to do anything in one way or other 24 when it comes to situation like this. If there was a 25 Scientologist out there and he was 75 1 counter-demonstrating against Mr. Minton or whatever, 2 it is not -- there is no policy, there is no official 3 policy saying, this is how you act. 4 Q Okay. So there was nothing wrong with what 5 you saw as far as the Scientologists are concerned? 6 A I cannot make a determination on that 7 because I wasn't there. I didn't see the whole 8 thing. I saw part of the video. There was -- it was 9 heated. There were words exchanged. That's true. I 10 saw Mr. Minton strike the other person. 11 Q Did you see what happened -- did you see 12 what happened right before he threw that little 13 stick? Did you see what happened right before that? 14 A I saw the camera being jumbled around. 15 Q That's right. Because what you saw on that 16 video, if you watched the one that I gave 17 Mr. Johnson, it's two shots. One taken by a 18 Scientologist, and the one that this man was holding. 19 And you saw the Scientologist knock that out of his 20 hand so he couldn't photograph it, the ground is then 21 being photographed -- 22 A I never saw that. I never saw that. 23 Q All right. Okay, well then we'll wait. 24 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: That's all, Your 25 Honor. 76 1 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very 2 much. Mr. Johnson, redirect, sir? 3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. JOHNSON: 5 Q In addition to avoiding violence by 6 Mr. Minton were you hoping to avoid his harassing 7 members of the church and parishioners on that night, 8 on Halloween Night this year? 9 A Yes, sir, I was. I mean, my 10 purpose -- there was a few reasons I was doing that. 11 Number one was to make sure ensure that Mr. Minton 12 realized that he was being videotaped so that he 13 would not assault anybody. Number two was that it 14 was also in the hopes that he would curb any type of 15 screaming or yelling that he has done numerous times 16 in the past that can disturb religious counseling 17 sessions that are happening within the Fort Harrison. 18 Q They were going on right over his head? 19 A Yes, sir. I mean, people prepare years to 20 come to the church in Clearwater to -- for religious 21 services that only the church of Clearwater can give. 22 And to have an individual up there screaming and 23 hollering belligerent -- making belligerents 24 statements, vulgar statements, disrupting these 25 religious counseling services, is a very serious 77 1 offense within the church. 2 Q All right. Now Mr. Devlaming asked you 3 about something that happened some time ago in 4 Boston. And I ask you about what happened here in 5 Clearwater on Halloween Night this year. Did you 6 harass Mr. Minton in any way prior to him striking 7 you? 8 A No, sir, I did not. I did not say a word. 9 Q Did you speak to him? 10 A No, sir, I did not. I didn't. 11 Q Did you strike him in any way? 12 A No, sir I didn't. 13 Q In fact, he just turned around and whacked 14 you without any reason? 15 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Objection, 16 leading. 17 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 18 BY MR. JOHNSON: 19 Q Tell me what did he do? Without any reason